tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post5459449425100302681..comments2023-06-22T08:13:30.703-04:00Comments on reb livingston: Let Me Build You a StatueRLhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11664518356375046609noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-21600175527240812272009-05-12T13:13:00.000-04:002009-05-12T13:13:00.000-04:00It's always hard to get a balance. But, my family ...It's always hard to get a balance. But, my family is working on it. We're pretty 'non-traditional.' We have traded a lot of the gender roles. My husband is in charge of food. He grocery shops and cooks. I do bills, taxes, and all of that. When we had a car, it was 'my' car and my husband wouldn't drive, he loves bicycles. I do much of the cleaning though and am responsible for scheduling. Sometimes, I feel overwhelmed and it really gets me down. But, the 'even' family takes constant re-adjustment.<br /><br />I DID want a girl and cried when I found out Jeff was a boy. But, in the long run, our personalities fit perfectly. Again with gender roles tho: Jeff loves Pokemon and game boy, but he also plays piano, wears a skirt around all weekend, and paints his toenails pink.Jennifer Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15931457867406555423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-46188654194267232892009-05-09T12:02:00.000-04:002009-05-09T12:02:00.000-04:00Lynn, I had no idea about your first husband. Tha...Lynn, I had no idea about your first husband. That must have been incredibly difficult.<br /><br />And you're right, the subject is so much bigger than the poet scene. I was trying to limit my focus on that so not to have my head explode. And you're absolutely right about how society treats single mothers.RLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11664518356375046609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-78385935322561270372009-05-09T08:44:00.000-04:002009-05-09T08:44:00.000-04:00"I came to the table of fatherhood without ..."I came to the table of fatherhood without any preconceived biases or specific role/gender models that I expected myself and my family to follow." <br /><br />Sorry, but I believe that there isn't a person alive who doesn't have role/gender models, and that each person needs to become aware of what those preconceptions are, specifically and generally, so as to be able to make more conscious choices.<br /><br />There are some exceptions to the 30% poet dads, Reb---I can think of 2 off the top of my head---and I'm sure you can too, so there's hope. Maybe.<br /><br />I wanted a girl, but had a boy, and ended up being very happy about it. <br /><br />I remember the first time these issues and ideas cropped up in a real personal way for me. I was hugely pregnant in the heat of a very hot summer, and was listening to my husband fret about when he would have time to play his saxophone after the baby was born. I never said anything to him, but felt angry at the time because I was huffing and puffing and sweating just to haul my elephantine body up off the chair to go pee for the sixth time that hour---did I even have time to worry about when I'd write poetry? Hell no. Turns out he was a wonderful father, and though I never counted per se, I'm pretty sure he changed as many diapers as me.<br /><br />Then when my son was 9 months old my husband was hit by a train and killed, and whatever division of labor we had established, shifted radically. I raised him by myself until he was 6, with strong moral and a little bit of practical support from 2 grandmothers. I was lucky in that I didn't have to go out to work when he was very young. People felt terribly sorry for me, of course (this was a long time ago, so I'm not telling this so that you'll feel sorry for me) but they did *not* feel sorry because I had so much fucking work and had to do it all alone, --- they felt sorry because my husband had been killed. And they constantly reiterated how lucky I was that I didn't have to go out to work, that I could stay home and take care of everything. <br /><br />Six years later I got remarried, to a man who had raised his son by himself since the boy was an infant, too. The social reinforcement he got, throughout all those years, for raising his son by himself, was astonishing "You mean you changed all the diapers?" etc etc etc. He did have to work at the same time, so had that to contend with, and I'm not saying it wasn't very difficult for him, but it was as if he had committed some superhuman act, to do all the household stuff without any help. <br /><br />And then there are all those single mothers who do everything all the time by themselves -- are they admired in our society? Nope. They're misfits, still, to this day, in our society, and viewed as people who somehow fucked up by not holding on to a husband.<br /><br />I've gotten sort of off-topic of poet-dads, but it's a large issue, bigger than poets. <br /><br />I have hope for the future generations, too, Reb. Even women in their 20s seem so much more balanced than women my age are/were about all this. It's a slow process, I think. Maybe someday women will even earn equal pay for equal work, & they won't be legally murdered in other countries for acting in socially inappropriate ways and maybe someday female castration won't even exist. It's a huge issue, and people get tired of talking about it, but it still needs to be talked about. A lot. So thanks for bringing it up.Annandale Dream Gazettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08155953951163636760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-34100781778201254952009-05-09T01:03:00.000-04:002009-05-09T01:03:00.000-04:00Tortilla, I'm not criticizing any mutual agreement...Tortilla, I'm not criticizing any mutual agreements couples make to distribute responsibilities. I happily take on more domestic responsibility and childcare than my husband because he works a full-time job. Whatever works. My post was intended to focus more on a lack of awareness and empathy I've run across with some (not all, certainly) poet-dads in certain differences. They speak the feminist talk, but it's mostly talk. It's a strange disconnect.<br /><br />I'm glad poet-dads are participating in this conversation. <br /><br />Jeannine, I believe in miracles!RLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11664518356375046609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-66597991059737116292009-05-08T21:10:00.000-04:002009-05-08T21:10:00.000-04:00This post makes me so grateful that my husband's m...This post makes me so grateful that my husband's mother taught her two sons to cook, do household chores, etc. Especially since my mother raised me to stay out of the kitchen, because if I ever went in, I'd never find my way out (isn't there a feminist quote like that? Or it could be all my mom...) She was worried I'd be the one stuck doing all the household stuff; my husband's mother was worried she'd have sons who didn't know how to do anything themselves around the house. <br />So, between us, he does the majority of the cooking and cleaning, though we both pitch in. I think I'm lucky, and I'm happy with the arrangement, but it would be nice if it was a more common occurence than it is, and it wasn't like, "Oh my God, your husband cooks and cleans, it's a miracle!"Supervillainesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03721829125190373978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-15313092071839424722009-05-08T17:32:00.000-04:002009-05-08T17:32:00.000-04:00I agree that a dad or mom should never consider ti...I agree that a dad or mom should never consider time that they are spending with their children as "babysitting" (but when they do ... that certainly is an indicator!)<br /><br />However ... I need to consider a little clarification on the modes and models here ... <br /><br />It seems to me that one (or two) of the adults in a family have to earn money to support the family. If one adult is the primary moneymaker, yes, I do think the other adult/parent should be expected to do an equal or greater amount of housekeeping/child raising, etc., particularly if the parent that is out of the house must (by necessity) work 8, 10, 12 or more hours a day.<br /><br />I am very intentionally leaving gender out of this. It's really not a matter of gender politics or feminism to me, more a matter of distribution of energy and practical necessity.<br /><br />I also say this having stayed at home, as a dad, for my first son, Linus, who is now 25 years old. I did it for about two years, in DC, during the 80's. Sometimes I worked at night as a waiter or as an recording engineer (slightly more lucrative than poetry, though not by much–too much overhead.) I can quite honestly say that this was one of the most wonderful (and sleepiest) times of my life, and I wish that I could have continued to do it, but it was not financially viable, particularly when he was of school age (even pre-school.)<br /><br />Which brings up another issue: by the time the child is 5 or 6, they are effectively out of the house for the first six hours of the day. That is an extraordinary luxury that is afforded anyone who is lucky enough to spend their time days with their children (although, yes, I do know there are errands to be run, houses to be cleaned, meals to be prepared, etc.) –Still...<br /><br />Consider the position of any poet or writer you might know and the distribution of their energies – at what liberty are they? I was going to name some examples, but I can think of few who are at liberty to write to the degree that they care to write. I listened to an interview with Paul Muldoon the other day, and he said that due to his teaching commitments and editing work for the New Yorker, he was able to write 12 poems last year! All too common, I'm afraid.<br /><br />I did whatever I could to carve out time for myself during that period. I spent a great deal of time recording my own music during the late night hours, after caring for him during the day, recording for others or restaurant work til 12 or so, working on my music til 4 or 5, usually getting by on 2 or 3 hours sleep (not smart.) If I had continued to care for Linus through the school years, I imagine I could have partitioned several hours a day during his absence for the sake of my own work. I am certain I would have enjoyed it–the work, time with my son, the relief from office politics of all sorts, in spite of the pressure to be one of the Mad Men.<br /><br />Still, I do agree that there is a certain expectation that a mother will do the majority of what have traditionally been considered 'housekeeping' and 'child-raising' work, a sort of default mode. However, my observations have led me to believe – after having been in a traditional work force for about twenty five years (teaching / wine distribution, etc.) that there is a flip side to it: <br /><br />I have never seen a father take off more than a few days of paternity leave (unless the child's well being was at risk), even when he ached to do so. And those fathers who have, like me, by choice or necessity, stayed at home to help raise their children, are subjected to extraordinary pressure and silent condemnation for doing so, despite outward signs to the contrary (ask one!) <br /><br />On the other hand, and again, this is my observations through my experience (perhaps colored by having lived in the NE and SE only?) – mothers in the work force are expected (at least at the jobs I have had) to take at least 6 weeks leave (as they should, I should add – and as should the dads, too, I believe) and if they choose not to return to their career / moneymaking professions, are rarely criticized for doing so, but looked upon as being heroic (to which I add, they are.) Not so, I feel, for dads. A father who gives up his job to stay at home is either subtly shunned, or to some degree feels that way – I believe that–and I open myself up to a tsunami here–men have not come as far as women have in the last 30 years when it comes to redefining their role in the workplace and the home.<br /><br />I imagine many people might say that I am wrong in my assumptions, but I came to the table of fatherhood without any preconceived biases or specific role/gender models that I expected myself and my family to follow. Truly, I was just winging it and hoping for the best, and these were the experiences I had. I observed what I observed, made many dumb mistakes, and try to improve upon myself as much as I could, as much as I now can.<br /><br />And yes, with both children, there were many times that, in the moment, I wish that I could have more absolute and concentrated time to devote myself to my own work. But now that Linus is 25 and my younger son, Dashiell, 11 – I only regret that I didn't adore every moment in which they loved nothing more than spending time with their dad. I think that all dads and moms should strive towards feeling the same way about their children – the big fat cliché is too true, and they do grow up too quickly. Even at 11, school buddies and such are a far more alluring draw than mom or dad (although maybe I shouldn't say this – maybe I am just not as intriguing as his school buddies? I might be burying myself here) – but truly, I do believe that for many moms and dad that this becomes very real and at a pace that you didn't anticipate it would happen. <br /><br />Carpe diem, or, let's say, Carpe kiddo. Even if it costs you a few poems. And even if it does, it might make it possible to write better than ever, only a little bit later than originally planned. You see? It's all good!Ricky Garnihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11240795400994592569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-81070084995936487142009-05-08T15:01:00.000-04:002009-05-08T15:01:00.000-04:00Nic, ah super-mom, is there nothing she can't do? ...Nic, ah super-mom, is there nothing she can't do? :)<br /><br />Bernie, last month I had to explain to Gideon why I couldn't just take off my breasts, that they weren't detachable objects, that they were part of me. Over the weekend I had to stop him from drawing a penis on the "mommy" stick figure like he drew on his and the "daddy" figures. These gender role lessons are tricky business.RLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11664518356375046609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-49330785804122878992009-05-08T14:55:00.000-04:002009-05-08T14:55:00.000-04:00Well said Justin, I'm grateful that a poet-dad res...Well said Justin, I'm grateful that a poet-dad responded to this. Yes, while in some ways co-parenting creates limitations (as you mentioned), I think the dads who do truly (as opposed to lip-service) co-parent gain so much more, ranging from family quality to overall happiness. I don't understand how the poet-dad's who don't co-parent aren't jealous of the much better relationships with the kids that the co-parenting poet-dads have. It would make me feel very inadequate as a parent.RLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11664518356375046609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-36075772619829587262009-05-08T14:31:00.000-04:002009-05-08T14:31:00.000-04:00I agree with you on a lot of this. As a poet-dad,...I agree with you on a lot of this. As a poet-dad, I never talk about all that I have done, nor do I blame my children for the opportunities I have given up on in order to strengthen my abilities as a poet. That’s part of the job description of being a father. I work as a teacher and I write. My job enables me to pay for the financial costs of raising a child. It does not entitle me to think of myself as being better or in a position of superiority simply because I change diapers. My wife and I are partners, both squeezing in our extra curricular activities as we can, between the responsibilities of being parents. <br /><br />This does not mean we have given over our entire lives to the raising of our children, only that we both recognize that these are certain things we cannot do because we made the decision to be parents. For me, that means not getting my MFA. There is no state school close enough and distant ed. programs are much to expensive. Again, I am not blaming my kids. My choice is mine, and if I really wanted that MFA, I’d figure out a way to get it.<br /><br />My wife, to her credit, has never dragged me through the gutter, either. What she dislikes about the man-woman roles discussion is the segment of women who allow their husbands to behave like little boys themselves and then complain about it constantly on internet forums. We both have a role to play in the raising of our children and a shared responsibility to do certain things. My wife neither praises nor criticizes my active involvement in changing diapers, 3 a.m. feedings, etc. because it is nothing to be praised or criticized. Both parents are supposed to do those things. <br /><br />Have I lost poems because of my kids? Probably. Have I been forced to give up on workshops or put off editing until later? Most certainly. But like I mentioned before, if those things were really important, I have made time for them. I regularly tell my wife to go out for a drive or go see a movie by herself. I don’t expect praise for that. I am simply offering because it’s what is done in a partnership while trying to raise kids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-31803573490590600412009-05-08T11:43:00.000-04:002009-05-08T11:43:00.000-04:00Yay Reb! And I am raising Frida to understand that...Yay Reb! And I am raising Frida to understand that being a stay-at-home mother does not mean being a slave to the household. I am trying to teach her that Mommies have work that fulfills them beyond the scope of playing hide-and-seek and making peanut butter sandwiches for her to take to school. And despite the fact that Frida is in her "princess stage", I'm trying to move her beyond gender roles. Teaching her that if Mommy cleans the gutters while Daddy unloads the dishwasher, that's not wierd.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6221959636094249465.post-47594818737082911552009-05-08T05:41:00.000-04:002009-05-08T05:41:00.000-04:00oh I love this. this is exactly how I feel about r...oh I love this. this is exactly how I feel about raising my own two sons. Super-crass of me to link to my own work, I know, but all these feelings are exactly what went into this poem:<br /><br />http://www.poetserv.org/SRR31/sebastion.html<br /><br />Thanks for reminding me! NicAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com